How a Reluctant Expert's Resistance Fueled a Breakthrough in Data Center Migration
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INTERVIEWER
So, uh, I always avoid naming the company that you're trying to interview with. Um, the company that you're gonna be looping with, uh, is one that is notorious for having a very relentless pace of work. Um, And it's unclear from the JD whether or not you'll be required to be managing teams. It's almost immaterial the question. It's, it can be interpreted as being required, but it's not. Um But one of the requirements for the role that you are interviewing for. You most clearly will have to influence others over whom you do not have direct managerial control, and, and get them to do things that you need done, obviously, to meet your commitments. And so I, I'd like specifically to talk about a situation where Someone over who you didn't have direct measure of control was not moving fast enough, just wasn't, you know, they might eventually have gotten there and gotten it done, but they just weren't moving fast enough. Um. Let's just start with just kind of paint the picture for the situation and, and I'll have follow-ups.
CANDIDATE
Sure, I, I, I think I understand where you're going with this one. And, and, and again, um my time as a technical PM in the um IT services group, global services uh of, of IHS Market, I, I have a good example of that to share with you. So, in, in getting ready for uh this data center migration that I mentioned earlier, uh there, there was a teammate who, whose specialty was the network side. And the nature of the network changes that had to be made uh were very specific and involved new technology called NSX technology. NSX is VMware's networking and software, um, uh, cloud goodness that helps you do some cool things with, uh, with your networking. So this individual, let's call him, let's call him Andrew, um, had been Uh, brought into VMware as an example of a key partner who knew, uh, a lot about this technology. In their advertising, in their marketing materials, Andrew had been interviewed and then shown in videos with the technology that were used by VMware to tell the world how great their stuff was. So just
INTERVIEWER
for
CANDIDATE
clarity's
INTERVIEWER
sake, he, he was a VMware employee that you hired away from VMware, or he was a partner external to VMware that they used in their videos. Tuting their NSX technology,
CANDIDATE
it was the, the 2nd. So, so he was an IHS market employee on my project team responsible for networking, but it was also, I'd say one of the top 6 people in the world on this technology. He just wasn't working at VMware. This was all, this is all lead up and build up to the problem, which is Andrew was not so much a team player. So, when the project meetings and the planning that was taking place for the different muscle movements that had to go right for this, uh, for this all to work, he was very focused on his own work and not the overall success of his, of his, of his teammates. For example, one of the things we do to get ready for a a large enterprise change is we, is we build a runbook. This is a very specific set of steps, time sequenced, who does what by when. For the cloud migration piece for VCenter, the guys agreed to do their piece and set up the runbook. For the, uh, the new tooling, uh, Nimbus, another VMware tool to CAS. Uh, those guys again agreed and said, yep, we'll, we'll come back and, and have uh our who does what by when, so we can attach it to the change and demonstrate that we know what we're doing and when we're doing it. Andrew wouldn't do the the networking part and claimed that there was no there was no rollback. There was no rollback plan for his piece. After a couple of
INTERVIEWER
meaning there's, it wasn't possible or it wasn't needed because he was perfect,
CANDIDATE
it was, um, there's always a rollback possible. It's just the amount of work that it'll take to go once you've done a significant change. But the problem with Andrew is that he thought there, there was no circumstance under which he could be required to bring something back. And yet, the plan had to have that piece so that we could present the risk to the change board, to the folks who decide, hey, you know, all these different pieces represent a certain amount of risk to our live products and services. I couldn't get Andrew to play that, that game. After a couple of tries of, of using social proof, and hey, your teammates are doing this, we're all lining this up on, on different calls, uh, tagging him on um different questions on Microsoft Teams, reminding him about it and asking about it. I took this step. I took this step. I, I went to his boss. Now, his boss works in London. And it was difficult to set up a time to catch that guy, but towards the end of my day and the end of his day, we found an hour. And it turns out that this non-teaming behavior, some of the passive aggressive behavior that I've been seeing in groups, It had not been the first time. And uh this, this, this manager knowingly um Uh, was, was accepting that these were things about Andrew that were true, but, but, but also was kind of leaning towards an argument of, well, he's Andrew though, and he's so smart. He knows all this stuff that we kind of let him do what he wants to do. When I got that feedback, I went one level higher. I went to the head of networking for the company, and I just said, hey, we have this situation here. I'm gonna work with Andrew. It's not because Andrew's a bad guy. It's because Andrew's not behaving in a way that's helpful for the team. But I need you to know that he's behaving in such a way that it's, it's not good for his future or his, or his career to be a person who works solo. Um, he's, he's young, very smart, and if he can be turned, so to speak, to the good side, uh, then he'll be someone that projects and teams would want to have on board instead of someone who is kind of a difficult, a difficult weight. I feel like I may have gone a little long on this one, but it was something uh that I'm, I'm passionate about, not giving up on someone who's difficult, not giving up on someone who sees it a little differently. Um, Be that as it may, the result is we have, we have a good run book. We have a confident Andrew who's ready to do um the network work required of him on, on December 5th. But we also have two managers who have some written feedback. I provided um examples and written feedback that uh if, if Andrew needs a little more work down the line with HR or some kind of personal improvement plan, they've got a baseline for that. Why? Because I wrote it down. I took the time.
INTERVIEWER
Well, I guess my first follow-up question is, Was it the head of networking that then kind of pushed back down to Andrew, hey, you got to get this done, or how did that decision get made that you ultimately got what you needed?
CANDIDATE
Thank you. Thank you. Good follow up there. Uh, it was a combination. Uh, I, I think both, both managers realized that Andrew had been in this way before, but I don't think a, a PM, um, I'm just going to say it, of my stature or communications ability had kind of put it the way that I, uh, that, that they had heard it from me before. So yeah, they counseled him. It was obvious and the behavior the following Monday was Um, as if it was a new person. Now, that didn't last for long, but, uh, from time to time, I was able to establish enough rapport with Andrew that I could remind him and say, hey, you're on a team. This is, this is about our success. And the customer's success, it's not about you. And uh I, I think, I think I've got him on board.
INTERVIEWER
And so what did you feel your biggest piece of leverage was in, in getting these managers to move in a way that benefited you?
CANDIDATE
My ability to communicate the behavior that I had seen in a way that was objective. It would have been very easy to take some of the passive aggressive behavior, you know, responding to very carefully crafted emails from his teammates in one line, sentences like this will never work, or I'm not concerned with this, I'm, I'm concerned with that. But I think because I was able to stay objective and just focus on future behavior, future behavior. If, if Andrew would do a little more of this, a little more of this, um, then, then, then he'll be successful, not just on this project, but in his career. He's got a long career ahead of him. I, I think those things, um, Again, and plus just the way I, I have a reputation in my company for being a straight shooter, working with integrity, and I was bringing that to bear on a problem with one of, one of their guys. I, I think maybe they were a little stunned that someone had finally called this gentleman out, um, but it's something that's inside me. It's, it's, um, you can't be shy as a leader to do that, as long as you're objective and fair. It's, it's for everyone's benefit to have those hard conversations.
INTERVIEWER
So it sounds like. A combination of willful ignorance on the part of management and a rock star personality taking shape, which then Becomes a very difficult person to work with. OK, um, so how are you staying on top of Andrew, um. How, I mean, how are you staying on, he's not, it doesn't work for you. So how are you staying on top of him? And I'm not talking about the focusing on the future, but just process wise, how are you staying on top of him? He's dismissive in emails, he sounds like he's tough to, you know, kind of communicate with, but how are you staying on top of him?
CANDIDATE
Well, this is the, uh, this is the wondrous magic of Microsoft Teams. Um, one of the ways I do that is I check with him on things that he's responsible for at different times of the day, and I just follow up and remind. Uh, this is a person who may not be online at normal working hours in North America. He's on the East Coast. Um, so I'll, sometimes I'll get out at 9 o'clock at night and just, uh, see if he's still awake. And many times I've caught him. So it's a, it's, it's making sure he attends meetings. If there are 9 people on the call and we're there to talk about networking and he's not there. And I see that he's uh uh working. Uh, I pull him into the meeting and 9 times out of 10 he joins. Uh, but it's a, it's a little bit more care and feeding than, than normal. Uh, the thing is, he knows some things about this, uh, technology that, that we need. So, those are, those are typically the ways. I haven't had to go back to the managers at all. That's, that's not been a problem. Sounds like a pain in the ass. There are people who do that, yeah. It's so interesting how young this guy was able to establish himself as, as, I, I, I really am not exaggerating when I say a world uh resource on how this stuff works, and yet at the same time could be so self. Focused.
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